[owncloud-devel] Bounties for better collaboration

Jos Poortvliet jospoortvliet at gmail.com
Mon Sep 22 22:30:00 GMT 2014


On Monday 22 September 2014 21:05:14 Klaas Freitag wrote:
> On 22.09.2014 20:16, Jos Poortvliet wrote:
> > On Tuesday 12 August 2014 00:11:24 Michael Grosser wrote:
> >> Hey,
> >> 
> >> I think it totally depends.
> >> Bounties are a way to support issues being fixed (in the simplest
> >> way), if it happens to be an ownCloud developer either it's a bonus, a
> >> ownCloud Inc revenue stream or (as most projects do these give it back
> >> to the community team - claiming on behalf of a team is on the roadmap
> >> it seems).
> > 
> > Yeah, if a paid engineer implements a bounty, the money should go in the
> > pool. We can perhaps use it to pay for coffee and pizza at the next
> > ownCloud Conference!
> 
> Hmm, with what reasoning? A lot of people working on free software are
> "paid engineers", in whatever company. But most of them are bound to
> what their bosses want them to do. Again, in the most companies, and
> also in the ownCloud company. So you need to be more accurate: IF the
> feature was on the company-todo list of the paid oC developer, that
> makes no bounty, no doubt about that. If the same dev does it on a rainy
> sunday, and the feature is not on the todo, why would she not get the
> bounty?

Yeah, it's a little more complicated like that - but there are actually lots 
of 'precedents', similar situations, where the same is done. Employees 
usually can't participate in lotteries, contests and give-aways of a company 
- even if they would participate in their free time... Take the recent 
'review contest' we did: employees and their families were not permitted to 
join. Also not on a rainy Sunday.

> So yes, bounties. You get the point why I dislike that idea? They put
> the whole thing of contributing to free software into a wrong light in
> my opinion.

Yes, it has downsides - exactly that one.

> Consider this benefits if you contribute:
> - potentially millions of people use code that you wrote and like it.
> That is a huge amount of positive energy :)
> - in free software projects, the top skilled people of our profession
> come together, that is proofed. You meet them and get them to know.
> - you learn from them for free, and in whatever flavor of computer
> science you want
> - you learn how to work with international teams
> - you learn social skills
> - you learn to read lengthy emails like this
> - you learn soo much other stuff
> - you go to nice cities and meet crazy guys and party (or not)
> - your opportunities when looking for a serious job are hugely good.
> - you have so much fun in the evenings and don't have to watch TV
> - more...
> 
> Compare that benefits to the bounty dollars.

That is why bounties shouldn't be payment. As Michael said - it can be a 
coffee with cake, or perhaps justification to spend some time on something 
which you'd otherwise have to spend on doing something for a paying customer.

And don't miss the side of the people who put money on bounties - have you 
seen the frustration in the thread about syncing file changes instead of the 
entire file ( https://github.com/owncloud/mirall/issues/179 )?? People who 
can't program or don't have time are helpless in open source projects. That 
is not cool, and bounties give some of them the ability to participate.

> We should donate all the bounties to projects that need the money, or
> rather convince the people who donate to the bounties to give the money
> to "Médecins sans Frontières" [1] (or such) right away.

... That is an excellent idea. I don't know exactly if and how this can work 
on bountysource but it would be very cool if bounties could go to a cause 
like that. Bountysource does actually allow you to donate the money of a 
bounty to a cause, I believe - Michael probably knows more details, I can't 
find it in the UI right now.

> That is what I think.

Thanks for that.

> Klaas
> 
> [1] https://www.aerzte-ohne-grenzen.de/mitarbeiten/english
> 
> >> Additionally I think it's not just new contributors, but providing an
> >> additional income (more coffee/less consultancy etc.) to contributors
> >> and perhaps let ownCloud Inc decide on the importance on issues more
> >> easily as the bounty could be a measure on importance too. These
> >> metrics could be useful and with the idea to let ownCloud Inc
> >> employees claim on behalf of the oC community team it goes back into
> >> the community. We'll see how ownCloud Inc/Community/Contributors see
> >> the best fit.
> >> 
> >> Still new contributors have one more reason to dig into the overhead
> >> (read code, read+sign contributor agreement, read contribution
> >> workflow etc.) of becoming a contributor.
> >> 
> >> Cheers
> >> Michael
> >> 
> >> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Bernhard Posselt
> >> 
> >> <dev at bernhard-posselt.com> wrote:
> >>> Bounties are used to get features implemented which main developers
> >>> wont
> >>> implement iirc. I doubt that it will attract more devs. Put yourself in
> >>> the role of someone who pays for a bounty: he doesnt want a new
> >>> contributor, he wants the issue fixed.
> >>> 
> >>> On 08/11/2014 08:47 PM, Mark Ziegler wrote:
> >>>> Hello,
> >>>> 
> >>>> for my understanding bountysource will/should motivate non-main
> >>>> developers
> >>>> to solve issues.
> >>>> As an employer I want my coders working on issues important for me,
> >>>> big bounties make issues (reported by users) more interesting.
> >>>> 
> >>>> I am trying to understand how ownCloud development will work together
> >>>> with
> >>>> bountysource.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Mark
> >>>> 
> >>>> Am 11.08.14 20:37, schrieb Bernhard Posselt:
> >>>>> Why should it matter who fixes it?
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> On Aug 11, 2014 8:03 PM, Mark Ziegler <mark.ziegler at rakekniven.de>
> > 
> > wrote:
> >>>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> one more thought.
> >>>>>> Some devs are employed by ownCloud and solving issues.
> >>>>>> Which issues should be target on bountysource? Or better which
> >>>>>> persons?
> >>>>>> Will employees give their bounties to the project if they solve them
> >>>>>> during work time?
> >>>>>> Does that make a difference at all?
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Just some thoughts.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> Mark
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Am 11.08.14 19:41, schrieb Michael Grosser:
> >>>>>>> Hey,
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Small addition:
> >>>>>>> Best to say it's mostly handled as a case by case basis as far as I
> >>>>>>> know and does try to find the right balance between preventing
> >>>>>>> forks
> >>>>>>> (dicussing merging of finished work) and paying for finished work.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Additionally to the 6/12 months option to get refunded if not yet
> >>>>>>> started/finished it's possible to let the refund go to the project
> >>>>>>> instead of your account.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>>> Michael
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 7:17 PM, Michael Grosser
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> <owncloud at seetheprogress.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Hey,
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> If they are closed as won't fix or not merged you get refunded.
> >>>>>>>> There is also the option to make bounty contributions time
> >>>>>>>> sensitive
> >>>>>>>> and let them be automaticly refunded after 6/12 months I think.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>>>> mciahel
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Mark Ziegler
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> <mark.ziegler at rakekniven.de> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> just checked FAQ on Bountysource and still have an open question:
> >>>>>>>>> What happens my bounties if issue is never implemented or fixed?
> >>>>>>>>> Do I get my money back after some period?
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>> Mark
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> Devel mailing list
> >>>>>>>>> Devel at owncloud.org
> >>>>>>>>> http://mailman.owncloud.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Devel mailing list
> >>>>>>> Devel at owncloud.org
> >>>>>>> http://mailman.owncloud.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>> Devel at owncloud.org
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> >>>> 
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> 
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> 
> >> 
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> >> http://mailman.owncloud.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
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